Does Angel love Buffy?

Citation :

Distance and time on the level: non-myth of the eternal unreturn
by macha

[exegesis. not a general study, though, but focussed specifically on Angel. all quotes from vrya's Buffy Dialogue dataBase. tell me if you have any trouble reading this format, okay?]

He's winding the clock with a key. It's morning, nearly nine. He has plenty of time. He's not getting any older. It's on his desk. The desk is not level, not on the level. He rolls a pencil across it. He goes for a stake, to level the ground.

What does Angel feel, what does he ever feel? Doyle tries to tell her he's fine. But Cordy gets a whole scenario going. When the stake comes out, Cordy bursts in, worried about his state of mind. She thinks he's in pain, after going to see Buffy in Sunnydale. But in fact he's leveling the desk. He's in control.

He's just amused by the intervention. Doyle was right. "Look, Buffy will always be a part of me, and that's never going to change. But she's human and I'm - not. And that's also never going to change. Look, we said our good-byes, no need to stir any of this up again." Angel is comfortable, both alone and with Doyle and Cordy.

Then Buffy arrives. Wearing black. Now he's notably uncomfortable. She has Issues, and feelings, about his visit to Sunnydale. About his tendency to make decisions for them both without consulting her.

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B: You can see me, but I can't see you? What are we playing here?
A: We're not. I'm not playing anything. I wrestled with this decision.
B: Which you made without me.
A: I tried to do what I thought was right.

When Angel chooses in this episode, he chooses for both himself and Buffy.

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A: I'm sorry if I handled it wrong. What else was I supposed to do?
B: I don't know. I just know that when you're around, whether I see you or not, I feel you. Inside. And it throws me.
A: Throws me, too.
B: So let's just stick to the plan. We'll keep our distance until a lot of time has passed. Given enough time we should be able to...
A: Forget?
B: Yeah. So, I'm gonna go, start forgetting.

It's not so much the logical decisions he makes that are the problem, it's what's that driving them. It isn't distance that's the problem. It's proximity. It isn't forgetting that's the problem, it's remembering. Buffy turns to go. It's almost nine o'clock.

The Moyra demon bursts through the window. There's a huge, really welldone fight. The demon exits again through the window. Buffy ends up accidentally in Angel's arms, horizontally. Discomfort. They decide to go after it. Ah, comfortable now. Interesting. "The Buffy and Angel show", Cordy tells Doyle, as they depart for the pub. "First they talk out their differences, and then they punch them out." Hmm. Slayers and their Demon Lovers, there should be a play.

She changes first, into something white. Perfect attire for the sewers of Los Angeles. Angel objects to Buffy's wielding of stake, which is odd (and it's so little, that stake, not like the huge one Angel used to level the desk). She questions his choice of weapon (axe) in turn. She wants to be done before dark (it's nine in the morning!). He says he can do it himself. She says she wants to even the score; he says "we're keeping score now?" She's aiming at logic, but that never goes well: "I mean, I only came to see you so I could tell you face-to-face not to see me face-to-face anymore, and I know there's a fly in that logic ointment somewhere, but...":

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A: No. It is confusing. And I.. When we're apart, it's easier. It hurts. Every day. But I live with it. Now you're - you're right here, and I can actually reach out and - it's more then confusing. It's unbearable.

It's not unbearable to be apart, but rather to be together. In his office, before she came, with the clock and the pencil and the stake, he was fine. In control. But emotion is always a fly in his logic ointment. He's happy with Cordy and Doyle, because they care about him and keep their distance. He likes it, that they care, as long as that distance is kept. But Buffy is too close, not far enough away. Time stops. There's no control.

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B: But we have to bear, right? I mean, what else can we do? It doesn't work with us. It can't.
A: No, I-I can't give you a life, or a future or anything a real girl would want.

A real girl. And him not human.

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B: No matter how much we miss each other.
A: Or what we feel in the moment.
B: If we let something happen here... we'd want more. And nothing's changed. We'd only end up having to leave each other again.
A: And that's the best-case scenario.
B: Oh, boy. I was really jonesing for another heartbreaking sewer talk.
A: I'm sorry.

It's impossible. Together they chase their own tails. There's nowhere to go with it. It's a curse. There's a demon inside. And she brings it out of him. He loses control. There is no future. He cannot wind time, cause he has no key.

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B: You know, I'm on the brink of something back home. I'm actually heading toward a pretty good life now that...
A: I'm out of the picture. That's why I left. I want you to have it.
B: Could we just - find this thing and get this finished? What if it went up?
A: Into the day. Where he knows I can't follow.
B: But I can.
A: Uh, I.. I don't want you going after him alone.
B: Look, it's best all around if we split up. I can handle it.

Angel cannot move into the day. There's a ladder, but he can't go up. Only Buffy, in white, can go up into the light. Angel cannot follow. So she goes up, while he goes back. Fights the demon again, and gets demon blood on his hand and, just like that, he becomes human.

It's perfect, right? She's human, and now he's not not. He comes back to the office in a daze, stands in the light.

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A: I want to find out what kind of a demon that was. Ow, my back. It hurts. Everything's..
D: More real, now that you're real?
A: Yeah. I'm mortal now. I have a mortal body. And I'm so - hungry!

Now he's a real boy, to her real girl. Now, he's mortal. Now, this is when it starts to really hurt.

But first, a small orgy at the fridge, revelling in pure sensation. Chocolate, though not yogurt. Piggy table manners. Liam, first thing we see released is Liam. Human, so no demon. No curse. Where has Angelus gone, then? Seeing Liam, seeing Angel. Who is seeing himself, reflected in the window. Who is wanting... cookie dough fudge mint chip ice cream (mind the cookie dough). Who does remember Buffy's waiting, but sends Cordy after her and tells her not to say what's happened yet, "not until I know what it means". Distancing. Unilateral decisions.

Doyle learns the Moyra demon's a "soldier of darkness", taking out "warriors for our side, like you and Buffy". Its "veins run with the blood of eternity", and that blood has "regenerative properties". (Seems a bit counter-intuitive that it should make him human and mortal, then, but let's leave that.) Doyle thinks Angel should celebrate, because "the demon's dead, you're alive". Logical. But Angel wants to know why. He says he's looking for the catch. But he's suddenly asking questions he never asked before:

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A: What's going on here, Doyle?
D: I don't know. I thought the only way you could be made mortal was if the Powers-That-Be stepped in.
A: What, they could have done this? How come I keep getting the feeling that you're not telling me everything.
D: 'Cause I'm not. We're both on a need to know basis here.
A: I need to know about this. Is this permanent? Am I - am I normal Joe now? Can I have a normal life? I want to speak to the Powers-That-Be.
D: Woah, woah, woah! That's easier said then done, bud. The Powers-That-Be don't live in our reality. You have to approach them through channels. Dangerous channels.
A: Yeah, you know what? Start approaching!
D: All right. All right. Maybe we can try the Oracles. But hey, if they turn you into a toad - don't say I didn't warn you.

Okay, this is all a Big Deal. It's his first attempt ever to pin down the PowersThatBe, what they expect from him. And why is he pursuing it now? Because they appear to have released him. Suddenly, he's destiny-free, and it's already making him uneasy.

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A: 'The Gateway for Lost Souls' is under the post office?
D: It makes sense if you think about it. Now listen, the Oracles are finicky and unpredictable. You do get in, don't dilly-dally. Ask your questions, get out.
A: Aren't you coming?
D: Not allowed. I'm just a lowly messenger, you're a warrior. If your heart is pure - and I do this right... 'We beseech access to the knowing ones' ... we may just survive. You're in.

Why are the Oracles guarding the Gateway for Lost Souls? It's like 'abandon hope, all ye who enter here' time. Dinza, Goddess of the Lost. Angel's still got his soul, doesn't he? Well, doesn't he? And where is he lost? Behind the GlitterTwin Oracles, we see a corridor, like one of those dungeon walk passages that stretch out forever and you never get any farther down the hall. And Doyle has forgotten to tell him he needs an offering.

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Male Oracle: Come before us, lower being.
Female Oracle: What have you brought us?
A: Was I supposed to?
Male Oracle: You call us forth and bring no offering?
A: (offering his wristwatch) I brought you this.
Female Oracle: I like Time. There's so little and so much of it.

He brings her time as his offering, he who has been timeless now for two hundred and forty-some years. He wound up the clock with a key, and Buffy came, and the Moyra demon came, and then he became mortal, which means to run out of time, and now he gives time away as his gift to the Oracles. There's so little and so much of it.

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Male Oracle: Well?
A: What's happened to me?
Female Oracle: It's true then, brother.
Male Oracle: He is no longer a warrior.
A: It was the demon's blood. It wasn't the Powers-That-Be that did this?
Male Oracle: The Powers-That-Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the Apocalypse?

Okay, remember Spike taunting Angelus in Becoming: 'someone wasn't worthy'? This is the most definitive statement we ever get in the bverse on what the Powers That Be might consider worthy enough to reward by making their Champion human. Save humanity and/or avert the apocalypse. Seems to me we've recently seen that done.

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Female Oracle: You faced a Mohra demon. Life goes on.
A: My life as a human. I'm not poisoned or under some spell?
Female Oracle: The Auguries say no. If it has happened, it was meant to be.
Male Oracle: From this day, you will live and die as any mortal man.

Which is the exact definition Wesley later comes up with for the shanshu described in the prophecies.

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Female Oracle: Privy to all the attendant pains - and pleasures.
Male Oracle: That which we serve is no longer that which you serve. You are released from your fealty.
A: That's it? I'm free?

And this is the part that makes him destiny-free. So at this point Angel has achieved a permanent transition to human, mortal, and not beholden to or doing the bidding of the Powers. Sounds perfect, doesn't it? A perfect day. Now if only he hadn't destroyed the Gem of Amarra, that Buffy sent him so recently, he'd be invincible too. What's wrong with this picture?

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A: What do I do now? I got this whole new life spread before me. I don't know where to begin.
D: Right. It's overwhelming. You can pretty much do what ever you want now. So the question is, what do you want?
(cut to the sunny beach, where Angel walks up to Buffy and kisses her passionately)

What does Angel want? Like a dream come true, isn't it? And there's Buffy right handy, the icing on the cake. Every impediment to their relationship has now been removed, just like that. No demon. No curse. No obligations. So romantic. Couldn't you just die?

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D: So? Don't they deserve a little happiness after all they've been through?
C: Let me explain the lore here, okay? They suffer, they fight. That's business as usual. They get groiny with one another, the world as we know it falls apart.
D: Well, he's not cursed anymore. And anyway, you can't be sure that they're...
C: Oh, please! They've got the forbidden love of all time. They've been apart for months. Now he's suddenly human? I'm sure they are down there just having tea and crackers.

And actually, they are. Uncomfortably. At opposite ends of the kitchen table. Having the same conversation they've already had. Twice, in this episode alone. The one that goes like this:

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B: Right. I mean, you spoke to the Oracles and they did say that you were cured for good. But how do we know that they really speak for the Powers? I mean they could be - pranksters.
A: Or there could be another loophole.
B: Exactly. And then the two of us are in even deeper and it's 'grr' all over again.
A: It would be smart to wait a while. See if this mortal thing takes.

There's a loophole, alright. It's Angel's loop. The demon's gone, the curse is gone, he's got a heartbeat, he's got the girl. But he's still stuck. Completely.

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B: Exactly. And even if it does, it's still complicated.
A: You're still the Slayer. And I'm not sure what I am now. I don't know what my purpose is. I can't just wedge myself into your life back in Sunnydale. It wouldn't be good for either of us. Not to mention the fact that you just started college. And what about slaying. I mean, if you had me to worry about, you might not be as focused.
B: Are you going to pull out a pie chart on me now? 'Cause I get it, it's not necessary.
A: I'm not saying I don't want you, Buffy. You know how much.. I'm just saying it's worth the wait to know that it's right. I need to be sure you won't get hurt again.
B: You know it's a good thing I didn't fantasize about you turning human only about 10 zillion times, because today would have been a real let down. So how does the mature plan go? You call me? I call you? What?
A: We stay in touch. Just not..
B: Literally. Funny. Okay, I'd better..
A: Right. Remove the temptation.

Relieved of all his problems, Angel's instinct remains clearly focussed on restoring distance, regaining control. "I don't know what my purpose is." The Slayer has a destiny she'd like to be free of. But Angel cannot do without his destiny. He talks about protecting her. But there's nothing in him to protect her from. Is it just habit that makes him retreat?

In fact we get to find out. Because in the process of removing the temptation, she touches him and suddenly he's sweeping the kitchen table clean, raiding the fridge naked and bringing food back to bed with them. "Mmm", Buffy says. "This is a dream. You're human for like a minute and already there's Cookie-dough-fudge-mint-chip in the fridge." Again with the cookie dough. Which Cordy has picked up. She listens to his heart beat. He promises her another perfect day tomorrow. And Buffy falls asleep "just like I've always wanted to. Like a normal girl, falling asleep in the arms of her normal boyfriend. It's perfect."

But as she sleeps Doyle gets another vision (and isn't that odd, considering that Angel's already been given his walking papers by the Powers). The demon's regenerated. Angel goes to kill it again, but now he's only human. The demon talks about the End of Days that is coming (complete with cookie dough, yep yep). Buffy has to go to save him.

It won't do. Back Angel goes to the Oracles.

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A: The Mohra demon said the end of days had begun. That others were coming, soldiers of darkness. I need to know if he was telling the truth.
Male Oracle: As far as such things can be told.
A: What happens to the Slayer when these soldiers come?
Female Oracle: What happens to all mortal beings. Albeit sooner in her case.
A: She'll die? Then I'm here to beg for her life.
Male Oracle: It is not our place to grant life and death.

So it is the Slayer's destiny to die at the End of Days, when the soldiers of darkness come. Huh.

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A: And ask you to take mine back. Look I can't protect her or anyone this way, not as a man.
Female Oracle: You're asking to be what you were, a demon with a soul, because of the Slayer?
Male Oracle: Oh, this is a matter of love. It does not concern us.
A: Yes, it does. The Mohra demon came to take a warrior from your cause - and it succeeded. I'm no good to you like this. I know you have it in your power to make this right. Please.
Male Oracle: What is done cannot be undone.
Female Oracle: What is not *yet* done can be avoided.
Male Oracle: Temporal folds are not to indulge the whims of lower beings.
Female Oracle: You are wrong. This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he's ever known for another. He is *not* a lower being.

The Female Oracle rather inclines to the romantic view. But is it, a matter of love? They don't grant that request. He asks them to restore his previous condition, to become again a warrior on behalf of the Powers. He asks them, essentially, to restore his Purpose. Is this a sacrifice? "Every drop of human happiness and love he's ever known for another." How many drops does that make, for Angel?

Then he goes back to his apartment to tell Buffy there will be no more perfect days, and in fact she is about to lose the only one she's got. Once again, he has decided and acted, ostensibly on her behalf. But the logic of it unravels with her questions:

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B: What? Why?
A: Because more then ever I know how much I love you.
B: No. No, you didn't.
A: If I stay mortal one of us will wind up dead. Maybe both of us. You heard what Mohra said.
B: Mohra's gone. We killed him.
A: He said others would come.
B: They always come. And they always will. But that's my problem now, not yours, remember?
A: No, I won't just stand by and let you fight, maybe die, alone.
B: Then we fight together.
A: Buffy. You saw what happened last night. If anything I'm a liability to you. You take chances to protect me, and that's not just bad for you, it's bad for the people we were meant to help.
B: So what? You just took a whole 24 hours to weigh the ups and downs of being a regular Joe and decided it was more fun being a superhero?
A: You know that's not it. How can we be together if the cost is your life, or the lives of others? I know. I couldn't tell you. I wasn't sure if I could do it if I woke up with you one more morning.
B: I understand. So, what happens now?

What, indeed? Okay, let's be oracles. He does come, albeit rather at the prodding of Wolfram & Hart, to stand with Buffy at the End of Days. But in the intervening years, he does not guard the Slayer's back. It's basically the same deal he later makes with Wolfram & Hart over Connor: he gets to remember, everyone else forgets. Just before the End of Days. Making decisions alone on behalf of them all. How selfless a bargain is that, for him to remember, really?

Is he dooming himself to experience the guilt? Or is he removing their ability to judge him for his actions? And this time, we cannot possibly blame Angelus. There is no Angelus when he makes his second trip to the Gateway of Lost Souls. This one's down to Angel alone. Human, for the second time.

Darla, I think, did much better with her second chance.

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B: When?
A: Another minute.
B: (crying) A minute? No. No, it's not enough time!
A: We don't have a choice. It's done.
B: How am I supposed to go on with my life knowing what we had? What we could have had?
A: You won't. No one will know but me.
B: Everything we did.
A: It never happened.
B: It did. It did. I know it did! I felt your heart beat.
A: Buffy... (looks at clock)
B: Oh God. It's not enough time.
A: Shh, please. Please. Please, please.
B: I'll never forget. I'll never forget. I'll never forget. I'll never forget.
(White flash dissolves to Angel's office the previous day.)

Is this love we're looking at? A lot of the B/A ship is based on this episode. That he acts out of love, makes a noble sacrifice in order to save her. It's true, he says it's about love. He says it's to guard her back. But he acts to restore their distance, to regain his purpose. He walks away.

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B: So, then let's just stick to the plan. Keep our distance until time has passed. Given enough time - we should be able to...
A: Forget.
B: Yeah. So - I'm gonna go - start forgetting.
(Demon attacks, Angel kills it)
B: That was unreal. How did you know how to kill it?
A: It's a Mohra demon. I had a lot of time to catch up on my reading.

Distance. Time. Real. Forgetting. Game death resets the level. Angel has had a lot of time to catch up. They're back in the office, twenty-four hours back. There's the clock, the desk, the pencil, the stake. The level. On the level. Maintaining distance. In control.

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B: Yeah. Okay. So I guess we've covered it, right?
A: I guess we did.
B: And that's all there really is to say.
A: Yeah. That's it.

It's the real end of the whole thing with Buffy, as Buffy doesn't get to remember. Angel, unencumbered, has acted definitively to restore stasis. To restore distance between him and Buffy. To reject shanshu in order to reclaim his destiny to shanshu! "Never going to change." He's choosing not to be a real boy. There's a fly in his logic ointment. "So the question is", Doyle says to him, "what do you want?" And the answer seems to be, nothing. Distance. Time.

Unbearable. She goes, into the day, where he cannot follow. He winds the clock, he gives his watch away. He does his level best. There's nothing more to say. It takes a stake to level up that desk.

It never happened.

Citation :

Angel love?
by alira

I'm in New Jersey at a writer's conference, being very good and not abusing people with my buffy-centric mindset. I did a workshop on "villains" using video clips from It's a Wonderful Life (Mr. Potter as the villain -- "villains tell the truth about the protagonist, force the protagonist to make moral choices, etc"). I accidentally fast-forwarded to the final part of the videotape, which I made from Buffy clips, and if anyone ever invites me to do a workshop on "How to Redeem a Villain," I'll use it, because it's Spike's Journey from School Hard to the Chosen. Many sighs as I rewound past Spike.

Anyway, I'm connecting wirelessly through my cell phone, so very slow connection. But was thinking about Angel's reaction to Spike's immediate demand about Buffy when he returned.

The poor Ducks take Angel's minor bout of jealousy as evidence that yes, he still loves Buffy! I was sort of surprised, because I haven't really questioned that love. I've never thought they were soulmates, or particularly well-suited, but I accepted that they loved each other, however poorly. But now I'm wondering. I do think buffy loves Angel-- she is like Spike in that way... I don't think she stops loving once she starts. They're both tenacious in their attachments.

But does Angel still love Buffy? What do you think?

Of course, what "love" means between two people who have not seen each other for more than 10 minutes in two years, I'm not sure. Still, Buffy seems to assume the love is there.

I'm thinking specifically of the End of Days/Chosen visit by Angel, and then the first two episodes of AtS S5.

Now it's been pointed out that Angel seldom has mentioned Buffy since S1 AtS, though he does fling her at Darla ("SHE made me go evil, I was so happy deflowering her" and I'm paraphrasing... btw, I find it interesting that it's the loss Buffy's virginity that precipitates Angel's "perfect happiness"... and the couple of sexual encounters he's had since, including the one that produced Connor, weren't "perfect"-- he seems to think it's not being Buffy that matters, but... ?). But it could be that it's too painful to mention her.

He sees her for an hour or so after her mother dies. Then the next year, when she is dead, he goes off for some retreat or something for awhile. To mourn, presumably. Then when she comes back, he meets her for a couple hours, at her request.

Then nothing until Chosen, when he comes bearing a file and the amulet.

Why does he bring the amulet? What sends him there? He's driven past Connor's new life/home, and then, apparently, right to Sunnydale, I think. When he reaches Sunnydale, he's oddly buoyant. Maybe he's happy Connor has a new life. Anyway, he greets Buffy with good cheer, even cracks a couple clunky jokes. She kisses him ("no tongue" she later tells Spike). The kiss lasts a bit longer than a usual hello kiss. It's her kiss, however, don't you think?

So he's there, and he's got the amulet in hand. And the file. They act like they haven't really been apart long, or... or like they have? So long it's useless to catch up?

Angel is so odd in this scene. Buffy keeps trying to engage him, but he actually seems much more interested in Spike than in her. He explains about the amulet, and she tells him he can't stay, and he asks why, and she mentions the second front, and he says, okay, but what's the other reason.

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ANGEL: Is it Spike? (Buffy stops walking, turns to face Angel) You're not telling me something. And his scent, I remember it pretty well.

Notice that he remembers Spike's scent. :) Also-- I just keep feeling he's not talking about Buffy... he doesn't say, "I feel like you're not with me anymore." Rather "Is it Spike?" Now it is interesting that for the first time in close to a year, she's spent a night with Spike, so his scent is on her. Would she have said anything if he hadn't figured it out? Would he have noticed anything if he didn't smell Spike? He's also not very surprised. He was much more reactive when he learned about Riley.

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BUFFY: You vampires. Did anybody ever tell you the whole smelling people thing's a little gross? (walks away)
ANGEL: (follows) Is he your boyfriend?
BUFFY: Is that your business?

A pertinent question, but she doesn't answer his. Of course, it's a little silly the way the two of them always use these highschool terms ("I'll always be your girl"), but he asks, and she punts.

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ANGEL: You in love with him? OK, maybe I'm outta line, but this is kind of a curve ball for me. I mean, we are talking about Spike here

.

Again the focus is on Spike. The question is even tighter than the earlier one. "You in love with him?" And how does he follow it up? He actually now responds to her question about whether it's any of his business... maybe I'm outa line.... well, no, actually, if they're soulmates, eternally bounded, he's not out of line at all to ask. But what's he interested in? What's the curve ball? Not that she might have fallen in love, but that it's Spike.

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BUFFY: It's different. He's different. He has a soul now.

Doesn't answer directly. But she doesn't deny it. She defends Spike (which she did not do with Riley), and seems to be saying he is at least eligible for her love.

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ANGEL: (stops) Oh. (looks up) Well.
BUFFY: What?
ANGEL: That's great. (mumbling to himself) Everyone's got a soul now.

So... it's all about Spike? :)

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BUFFY: He'll make a difference.

Still defending Spike. Interesting, already she's thinking ahead, thinking of Spike's future.

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ANGEL: (mumbling) You know, I started it. The whole having a soul. Before it was all the cool new thing.
BUFFY: Oh, my God. Are you 12?

She's right-- it's childish, but it does get to the heart of it, his sense of specialness... which has to do with the soul, not with Buffy.

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ANGEL: I'm getting the brush off for Captain Peroxide. It doesn't necessarily bring out the champion in me.

So what bothers him more? getting the brushoff, or getting the brushoff for Spike? And he's the one who connects this to not being able to access the champion-shipness.

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BUFFY: You're not getting the brush off. Are you just gonna come here and go all Dawson on me every time I have a boyfriend?

Buffy says straight-out, I'm not brushing you off. I think she's trying to keep this open, keep him attached, keep hold of the impossible love. And she pushes it-- is he going to come here and go all Dawson on her everytime she gets a boyfriend... but... that's not why he came here-- he was sent apparently by W&H. And he doesn't go all Dawson on her. His reaction is subdued-- petulance rather than jealousy. It's the Spike thing, not her having a boyfriend, that seems to exercise him. I can really feel her reaching out here, trying to elicit the response she describes-- some jealousy, some sense of loss or betrayal... but she just gets ....

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ANGEL: Aha! (points) Boyfriend!

Huh? Okay, he caught her. He's almost triumphant. But again, nothing about losing her.

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BUFFY: He's not. But...he is in my heart.

Is being in her heart more or less than being her boyfriend? Riley was definitely her boyfriend. Was he ever in her heart? Riley didn't think so. I suspect that since she and Spike are not sexually involved at this point, she's making that distinction, and comes back with something more complex, more befitting a relationship that has been through so much and overcome so much (including the sexual abstinence she and Angel never managed really).

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ANGEL: That'll end well. (walks away, leans on a tombstone)

Just an observation-- presumably meaning that Spike will mess it up? That nothing with him will work out?

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BUFFY: What was the highlight of our relationship? When you broke up with me or when I killed you? I'm well aware of my stellar history with guys... (sighs, leans beside Angel)

Again, they seem to be talking about two different things. She keeps trying to bring up "us"-- Buffy and Angel. And that's not coming from Angel. Angel's not going all Dawson on her, though she might wish he did. Angel's not insisting that he stay and be her champion. Angel's not arguing that she should stick with him, that they have a great love. But Buffy keeps arguing her side of this argument... he's just not holding up his side. It's like she ends up arguing for both of them. Here she's trying to remind him of their relationship... but he hasn't actually even mentioned it. And then, as she did really with Riley in As You Were, she takes the blame... she's the one with the lousy history. Now this girl has had three relationships. (Parker doesn't count... most of us probably have a Parker in our past.) I'm not saying Buffy is the best girlfriend out there, but how bad is her history? After all, Spike is still with her. She can't be that awful. But she tries to put the blame on her, because, I suspect,then she can think that she has some control, that there -is- a relationship that she's screwing up, and she can fix.

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BUFFY: And, no, I don't see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike, but I don't think that really matters right now. (chuckles)

Well, he is a vampire... can't procreate usually. But it's interesting that Angel actually -could- have grandchildren (we've just heard Connor talking about a girlfriend).

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BUFFY: You know, in the midst of all this insanity, a couple things are actually starting to make sense. And the guy thing? (sighs) I always feared there was something wrong with me, you know, because I couldn't make it work. But maybe I'm not supposed to.

She's being a bit nicer to herself... but still thinking she's the one who can't make it work.

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ANGEL: Because you're the slayer?

He's not right there with her. Wrong question. Her being the slayer is a problem for him, but it's not for Spike. Notice he doesn't say, there's nothing wrong with you-- he actually tells her what he thinks is wrong with her, why she can't get it right with guys.

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BUFFY: (looks at Angel) Because?OK, I'm cookie dough. I'm not done baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm gonna turn out to be. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next thing, and maybe one day I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat? (eyes go wide as she catches herself) or enjoy warm, delicious cookie me, then...that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done.

I still feel like she's sort of reaching out to him, proposing that Spike might be Mr. Right Now, but once she's done with the baking, who knows?

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ANGEL: Any thoughts on who might enjoy? (sighs, irritated) Do I have to go with the cookie analogy?

He doesn't pick up the ball, or cookie, here. If a man really loved... wouldn't he pick up some of these? I need only think about how Spike (who is truly in love) would react. (First he'd NEVER leave her with the amulet, never leave her to face the First Evil. It's not even imaginable.) What would he say here? Sod cookies, Slayer. I want you right now?

Angel doesn't say he wants to be the cookie-enjoyer. He is interested in who will be, however. More Spike-focus? I mean, at this point, the only other one she could think of in this position is Spike, and he knows it.

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BUFFY: I'm not really thinking that far ahead. That's kind of the point.

Begs the question. What's the point, Buffy? But we won't find out, because Angel doesn't bother to follow up.

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ANGEL: (hands the amulet to Buffy) I'll go start working on the second front. Make sure I don't have to use it. (walks away)

Whoa! Here you go, Buff, love of my unlife. Here's the potentially fatal trinket. And I'm tired of talking about this. See ya. Now I'm not saying that Buffy's self-revelation is fascinating. She's not the most thoughtful analyst. But... but it's heartfelt. She means it. It's important to her. She's realizing that she needs to grow up a bit. She might want a bit of reassurance that she actually has a future. And maybe a future with him.... but no. He just passes her the amulet and walks away, with a sharp command. Dismissed. He's not very interested. She's talking about herself... apparently not as interesting a topic as... Spike. :)

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BUFFY: (calls after him) Angel. (he turns to look at her) I do... sometimes think that far ahead.

What's this in answer to? What he should have asked. "Well, Buffy, in the future, when you're done baking, how about me?" But he didn't ask that. So she has to pose it herself. She has to call this after him, because he's walking away without having asked.

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ANGEL: Sometimes is something. (smiles, walks away)

A nothing observation. He doesn't ask what she's thinking, doesn't even say, "oh, good." And he smiles-- hardly heartbroken-- and walks away again.

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BUFFY: Be a long time coming. Years, if ever.

Good grief! She keeps trying. Trying to get some real response from him. Trying to tell him to -wait-.

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ANGEL: (shrugs) I ain't getting any older. (walks away)

Walks away again! How eager is he to get away, huh? And this last comment, though seen by the poor Ducks as meaning I'll be there waiting! means nothing at all. It's just as noncommittal as everything else he's said. And his action is all walking away.

There's no real conversation here. Angel wants to talk about Spike. Buffy wants to talk "about us". As soon as the conversation stops being about Spike, Angel loses interest and stops being responsive. I also suspect that he's basically out of there once he gets the idea that Spike will probably end up with the amulet (he's saying that he's getting the brush off... doesn't make him feel like a champion... and only a champion can wear the amulet. So I think he realizes that Buffy's going to make Spike her champion... hmm... does he actually implant that notion in her mind? He's the one who keeps mentioning Spike. We don't know why W&H wanted them to use this amulet, whether they thought Angel would wear it or what. But we do know that Angel thought it was too nasty for Buffy, even says he -won't let her= wear it, and then after the Spike thing, he hands it to her and walks away. Buffy's really trying to engage him in a discussion of "us", but he's not interested. He's eager to get out of there.

I don't know what that means. Some have suggested this is Angelus, brought out by the trauma of dealing with Connor. Or maybe it is just Angel, but he's eager to use this as an opportunity to get rid of Spike.

But... but there's little sign that he's even really noticing Buffy. And she, poor girl, keeps trying. Keeps talking, keeps arguing, even though he's not arguing back. She's the one who posits "maybe someday" -- he can't even finish the question before he gets irritated and stops. Does he actually care?

It's always instructive to lay out these conversations (esp since the other workshop I did was on dialogue). They are not connecting. And they're not connecting not because it's badly written, or they're in great conflict. They're not connecting because he won't pick up his conversational rope-end. She's giving him all the cues, and he's letting them fall.

It's even more extreme when it's compared to the conversation with Spike that almost immediately follows. Now, granted, as we've observed, from the very moment they met, Spike and Buffy have been engaged in a conversation -- and it never falters. They're always dancing. So it might not be fair to compare Angel's conversation... except that he's supposed to love her.

Here's the Spike - Buffy conversation--

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SPIKE: So...where's tall, dark and forehead?
BUFFY: (rolls her eyes) Let me guess. You can smell him.
SPIKE: Yeah, that and I also used my enhanced vampire eyeballs to watch you kissing him.

Interesting-- she puts them together. Spike and Angel 4-evuh. He cuts right to the point. He's growing up-- he's not going to beat around the bush. And he's not pretending he didn't see. He's jealous, and he wants her to know it.

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BUFFY: (awkwardly) It was...a hello.

I'm wondering whether she's telling the truth there... or if it's actually the truth-- it doesn't mean much in retrospect! But I don't think that when she kissed him, she thought it was just a hello?

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SPIKE: Most people don't use their tongues to say hello. Or I guess they do, but?

He's mad. But still able to articulate it.

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BUFFY: There were no tongues. Besides, he's gone.

That was another country. Besides, the wench is dead. So... were there tongues? i can't tell. :)

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SPIKE: Oh, just popped by for a quickie, then?
BUFFY: (walks away) Good, good. I haven't had quite enough jealous vampire crap for one night.

Look who is walking away now. Spike needs reassurance... okay, so he's being offensive. Notice that she's still grouping him with Angel. Making Angel his equivalent. Spike is really jealous. Was Angel? Or was he just resentful?

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SPIKE: He wears lifts, you know.

Spike, honey, we really don't mind that you're not so tall. You don't have to keep referring to Angel's greater height. :)

Buffy looks over at the punching bag that Spike was hitting and sees something has been taped to it: a sketch drawn in black marker on white paper, shows hair that sticks straight up, X's for eyes and fangs on the frowny face. Buffy rolls her eyes at the representation of Angel.

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BUFFY: You know, one of these days I'm just gonna put you 2 in a room and let you wrestle it out.

Wrestle what out? Who gets her as the prize?

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SPIKE: (rifling through an empty cigarette package) No problem at this end. (throws the package away in disgust)

Oh, yeah. Because he knows he'd fight. Wants to fight. No problem THIS END.

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BUFFY: (her eyes widen with excitement) There could be oil of some kind involved.

Is she longing for this fight? Why? She knows without a doubt that Spike loves her. Does she need to know that Angel does?

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SPIKE: (walks up to Buffy) Where's the trinket?
BUFFY: The who-ket?
SPIKE: The pretty necklace your sweetie-bear gave you. The one with all the power. I believe it's mine now.

Still being jealous. But staking his claim.

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BUFFY: How do you figure?

Is she challenging him to make his case? Teasing him?

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SPIKE: Someone with a soul, but more than human? Angel meant to wear it, that means I'm the qualified party. (holds out his hands)

Did Angel ever mean to wear it? And why does that mean Spike is THE qualified party?

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BUFFY: It's volatile. We don't know?

WE don't know... who is we? But she's getting nervous about the implications. I think maybe she did consider wearing it herself.

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SPIKE: You'll be needing someone strong to bear it, then. You planning on giving it to Andrew?

Confident. Flat. Demanding.

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BUFFY: (looks at the amulet, then at Spike) Angel said the amulet was meant to be worn by a champion.

Angel said... she's keeping him in the conversation.

Spike looks down, disappointed, but Buffy walks forward and hands it to him.

He's thinking that Angel's influence will prevail here. He is not a champion, he thinks, in Angel's eyes. But she makes her decision. Angel's view, whatever it is, doesn't count now. She knows what Spike is.

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SPIKE: Been called a lot of things in my time.

This is that mirroring moment, when the lover holds up the mirror that shows what you really are. She is showing him that he is the champion.

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BUFFY: (coyly) Faith still has my room.

And now he gets the championship trophy?

Notice she doesn't come right out and say it. She tosses it to him. Let's see if he catches it.

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SPIKE: Well, you're not staying here.

Yep. He knows exactly what she's saying, and responds to it. Not the way she expected, however.

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SPIKE: You can't buy me off with shiny beads and sweet talk. You got Angel breath. I'm not gonna just let you whack me back and forth like a rubber ball. I've got my pride, you know.

Four protests. Can't buy me off. You kissed Angel. You're toying with me. I'm too proud. Methinks he doth...

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BUFFY: I understand. (turns to walk away)

Now she gets to walk away. How confident is she in him? But it's sort of hurtful that she doesn't argue. She wouldn't let Angel go... she won't tell Spike she wants to stay.

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SPIKE: (cuts her off) Clearly you don't, 'cause the whole "having my pride" thing was just a smokescreen.

He's so brave... and so stupid. I just want to smack him. He's flaying off his skin and braiding it into a rope to keep them together. But he calls her on it, at least. If she won't call his bluff, he'll call hers.

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BUFFY: (sighs with relief) Oh, thank God.

Notice, Angel kept walking. didn't respond to her overtures. Spike, like Buffy before, keeps reaching out... and it doesn't take many reaches before she responds. And nicely. thank GOD. I doubt many people ever thanked God around Spike before.

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SPIKE: I don't know what I would have done if you'd have gone up those stairs.

uh, Spike? We know. You would have followed her. :)

They end up sleeping together. (Just sleeping, apparently.)

A much more productive conversation. But if Spike weren't so giving, so demanding, so willing, it wouldn't have worked.

Now I don't think anyone (except maybe the Ducks) would imagine that Angel loves Buffy as much as Spike does. But looking at the contrast between the two conversations, and the way they end, can we really conclude that he loves her at all? If we were to ask Buffy, how do you know Spike loves you, well, she'd start with the chains and the offer to stake Drusilla and end up with the sacrifice. Virtually everything he does after Crushed is evidence of his love, however obsessive and unwise at times.

But if we'd ask, how do you know Angel loves you? What could she point to? He doesn't even say the words anymore.

Now in Just Rewards, Spike asks about her... what does Angel's response indicate?

J'ai pas la possibilité de le lire dans l'immédiat, mais ça a l'air super intéressant !!! D'autant qu'on fait pas mal mention du Spuffy, donc j'irais voir ça tout à l'heure !! (enfin, j'espère que je serais toujours aussi joyeuse après l'avoir lu )

Le premier, je l'ai plus lu en diagonale, mais j'ai trouvé le 2ème hyper intéressant. Et un truc de plus contre cette fameuse scène, un!

Quoi que c'est plus un argument en faveur d'Angel que de Buffy. Mais vraiment, c'est super intéressant ^^

J'ai pris mieux le temps de le lire, et c'est développer de manière très intéressante ^^ J'adhère en grande partie aux arguments qui sont développés pour Angel (même si je n'ai pas toujours tout compris), et pour Spike. J'adore notamment le moment où il relève que Angel est aux aguets quand il s'agit de Spike, parce que ça l'énerve qu'il s'agisse de *Spike*, mais que dès que Buffy commence à parler d'elle ou d'eux, il se fait la malle, ça l'intéresse plus des masses C'est assez bien remarqué, j'adhère !

Et ça tend à confirmer qu'Angel n'est plus amoureux d'elle, même s'il garde de l'affection pour elle.

Par contre, il y a des aspects sur lesquels je suis moins d'accord, notamment au niveau de Buffy. Mais bon, je suis pas sûre de ce que j'ai compris, donc je ne vais pas me lançer là dedans

Mais je tiens à souligner que du côté de Buffy, il y a quand même des inteprétations très intéressantes également à en faire, donc c'est aussi à prendre en compte.

C'est quels trucs que t'as pas compris? Je peux peut-être t'éclairer ^^

Par contre, moi je trouve cette théorie super intéressante et j'suis assez d'accord. Surtout que ça colle avec le fait que Buff garde son fantasme Bangel "tout rose, tout parfait" et qu'elle aime peut-être penser que soit il leur reste une chance, ou que, bah elle aime penser que ça reste une possibilité, même si elle ne compte pas se remettre avec lui, parce que ça fait toujours plaisir de se dire "il me reste encore ça", "il m'aime encore".

Enfin, moi j'adhère énormément! Surtout qu'au niveau d'Angel, ça permet de rendre la scène plus IC par rapport à son comportement (même si je trouve quand même son immaturité face à Spike comme sortant de nulle part).

Ce que je n'ai pas compris, ce sont plus des phrases au milieu de paragraphes, donc c'est un peu 'perdu' dans la masse Ca se situe surtout dans la première partie, mais là, pour être honnête, j'ai un peu la flemme d'aller tout repêcher, mais merci de la proposition Bon, j'ai quand même saisi l'idée de fond, donc c'est déjà pas mal

Mais je suis d'accord que ça rend les choses beaucoup plus logique déjà...

Et je viens de me remettre le début de Just Rewards, vu que je m'en souvenais à moitié, et effectivement, ça soutient encore plus l'idée développée dans le texte. Angel considère plus Buffy comme un 'trophée' dans cette rivalité, alors que Spike a plus tendance à vouloir la voir, lui parler... être avec elle tout simplement. Pour Angel, ça reste plus une question de concurrence, et il ne cherche pas à aller à l'encontre de Buffy, mais plus à s'assurer que Spike ne "l'ait pas".
D'ailleurs, trop marrant comme il en a dit le MOINS possible aux autres au sujet de Buffy&Spike et au sujet de Spike tout court "Angel m'a dit qu'ils étaient alliés" => Ouais, ouais C'est juste que ça l'agace de s'être fait piquer sa place ^^

Idem dans Destin, lorsqu'ils se battent, Angel cherche à mettre Spike hors de lui en abordant le sujet Buffy, parce qu'il sait que c'est un point sensible, il fait plus ça par pure provoc' qu'autre chose... Il est encore question de sa rivalité avec lui, plus que n'importe quoi d'autre.

Spike est raide amoureux d'elle, mais Angel cherche surtout à s'assurer que Spike ne soit pas avec elle. C'est une optique relativement différente... et relativement concluante...

Et pour Buffy, ouais, on en revient toujours à ce problème d'idéalisation et de fantasme. Il lui faudrait juste un bon électrochoc pour se réveiller, mais bon, à savoir *quand* il arrivera...


***

Je suis en ce moment même en train de regarder le 5x02 d'ATS, et bon sang, j'avais oublié à quel point Angel était de mauvaise foi !!!!!!!! Genre, non, Spike n'a pas sauvé le monde, Buffy a fait tout le boulot, il l'a juste un peu aidé... C'est juste *trop* marrant Oh et surtout en 'occultant' qu'il avait une âme...
Comme quoi, c'est Spike qui lui pose problème, pas le fait que Buffy soit passée à autre chose.